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Re: The turning point project, archive 2383



Rick once again I admire your ability to stay calm in all this.
The funny thing is how being right, you can't make up your point.

I believe the real objection to genetic engineering  comes from the fact that it
is presented as a progress and yet appear as leading to nowhereland. It is hard
to admit it but I believe that most violent oppositions such as the one of Hervé
(who is old enough to speak by himself) are too be understood not as justified by
scientific arguments and on fears about health risks. These will come. In time.
The problem is more : what is our world going to look like if we keep on letting
scientists freely investigate it ?

Gods are dead things that people keep refering to, but in practice, with genetic
engineering the differences between species are crossed and genetic enhencement
of human is already on the road. Where all this will lead is unclear. But what is
clear is the scientist most refered point of view : none of my business. Or if I
were more neutral : what can I do about it ? There is scientific competition and
all this knowledge must be thrilling I understand.
But right there one touch to the limits of the human condition. If gene therapy
appear that work it may be possible to alter ones personality ie to alter ones
identity.

you may say but it has begun with pychiatry, you can take pills and be happy.
Sure.
The problem having deeper roots is not by itself less dangerous.

Genetic engineering in this unequal world seems like the american project of
antimissile defense a tool in the hands of the powerful an instrument in dividing
between those enhenced and those not those mastering the technology and those who
don't ...

I'm out of the point I know, but not that much. WHo cares what the university
researchers really were doing. The object is not to blame them. But insurances
are already confronted to the problem : shall we ask for genetic information to
fix our price ? And then one day employers and husband and wife ... There will be
some genetic enhancement of sick people (if it works, pray it may never) and
then, who's next, short and fat people, black ones may be ...
See that people changing with fashion ... white black tall short. I know this is
fiction. But not that much. THis is also a reality like technologically enhenced
people. So humanity as a common bond is loosening.

There u go, what do we care how they turned the ad ? Can't you see that
scientific progress is challenging the very values we have and our future is not
that a legitimate reason to be fearful ?

It reminds me of sth one ex.  told me/. a Woman, her husband, she knew there was
sth with him, he had an affair. She had doubts about one specific girl he knew.
ANd he grew upset there was nothing with her she had no rights to always harrass
him about her.
But there was somthing with another one.
That's all.

Can you or any one in this world assure us that family values will go on, that
rich continents will not drift appart from their poor neighbours, that
inequalities of wealth and health will not be reinforced and that no "fundamental
law" (such as : though shall not clone thyself, though shall not seek eternal
life, though shall not steal (ain't is stealing what the gene seekers are doing ?
It's stealing information without consent, or with forced consent)) will be
broken  ?
I believe u can't because u can't stop the world from turning. Well some it seems
here are trying. You should have pity for them because it is a hard work.




Rick Roush a écrit :

> >>Herve replied:
> >>Yes, but the difference between the "reality" and the wording is much
> >>smaller than the one in ads from biotechs that claim GMO are strictly
> >>identical to normal plants.
> >>Do not you agree ?
>
> >>Rick replied:
> >>(1) Show me such an example of a biotech ad; I have not seen anything that
> >>would lead me to agree with you.
> >
> >First, you know that biotech claim (and have forced the FDA to claim all the
> >same) that GMO=standard plants. It's the main argument against labelling.
> >Maybe it has not been written in an ad. But it's precisely because it
> >was claimed in small comittees where it was decided not to label.
>
> (1) The FDA has not been forced to claim anything.
> (2) It is at least arguable that GMO plants are the same as standard plants
> in terms of food quality, which is what the FDA has often stated. The
> turning point ad is not even close to accurate. It shows a medical
> experiment not directly related to genetic engineering and implies that it
> is.  It further quite deliberately sought to scare people into believing
> that biotech companies were looking to develop hideous human-animal
> chimeras.
>
> >Rick wrote:
> >>(2) It seems to me that you are arguing that "because the other guys lie, I
> >>have the right to do so also". Do you really believe that?
> >
> Herve replied:
> >No I don't. It's not what I said. Please, re-read what you quote yourself.
> >I said that the difference between the exact truth (fr which we are still
> >waiting for the confirmation) and what was said was smaller in the ads of
> >turnpoint than in the ads of biotechs. This does not legitimate distortion.
> >But I consider the distortion in the turnpoint ad as very small.
> >Mainly compared to the distortion in the ads of biotechs (some of which have
> >been condemned).
>
> Herve, even here you wrote "But I consider the distortion in the turnpoint
> ad as very small." Do you mean a little lie is ok but a bigger lie isn't?
> How do we begin to quantify the size or weight of a lie to judge which are
> ok and which aren't? Thank you for at least accepting that there is
> distortion in the turning point ad.
>
> >>
> >>Herve wrote:
> >I believe that the vision of humans as mechanisms is very usual in science
> >because Science is (and must be) reductionist.
> >Yet this vision should remain in labs and not be propagated in society.
>
> Ok, let's push that reductionist science back into the labs, and go back to
> medicine as it was practiced in the 1700's.  Forget antibiotics; they're
> based on a reductionist (even if French!) and accidental experiment in a
> reductionist petri dish.  Where will all this end?
>
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